S3E6: Paul's Story - The Other Side - Pt 5/5

Seventeen years in prison doesn’t end with a gate opening. Paul explains what happens next: taking public transportation back into New York City, checking into a halfway house, meeting parole requirements, and trying to make sense of a world that no longer feels like the one he left. Chinatown looks different, technology has rewired daily life, and even simple choices like where to eat can feel unreal when you’ve spent nearly two decades in maximum security.

We also get into the parts people skip when they talk about “second chances” and prison reentry. Family love can be real and still be distant. Seeing your mother after years can be emotional and awkward at the same time. Grief hits differently when you can’t go to funerals, and toughness can become a kind of numbness you don’t know how to turn off. Paul stays honest about what he lost, what he accepts, and what he refuses to carry as bitterness.

Then we talk practical rebuilding: employment with a record, the power of referral networks, and why relationships often determine whether reentry after incarceration turns into stability or relapse. Paul shares how he earns degrees, finds housing, and lands jobs with employers who already know his past and still choose to offer a shot. From there, the conversation moves into love, co-parenting, and fatherhood as a deliberate decision to be present in ways his own family wasn’t.

We close on the biggest questions: regret, identity, and what he would tell his 12-year-old self before organized crime and prison. Two lines from the end keep echoing for me: “Survival isn’t success” and “Loyalty isn’t love.” If those hit you too, subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review with the moment you can’t stop thinking about.

Please contact me at theunclewong@gmail.com

Transcript

Final Part Setup And Recap

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Yo, what's up everyone? Welcome back to Asian Uncle. And this is the final part of my conversation with Paul. And again, if you're new, please go back to episode one. The story has to be heard from the beginning. Last time, we were in the prison years. Maximum security. There's a slowing down and then stopping. Even from his own parents. The loyalty he pled for turned out to be a situation. These brothers, we so called them. It's just a terminology. And then something shifted. Slowly. At night when there was nothing left to distract him from himself. He said facing yourself in there was harder than any violence he'd ever been through. Because you can't fight it. Alright. Now let's finish this story.

First Day Out And Halfway House

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Now for the ending of the story, now. So after all this, like, you know, what did you do on your first day off? Like, you know, like on your first day out, like on your first week out. You know, like tell me about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Well, you know, I I didn't go home to family or anything, right? Um, so I went to a halfway house.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

What's a halfway house?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

It's a place, it's housing for people who come home who don't have housing to go to.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Why didn't you go home?

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Um, I wasn't really in contact with my family at that time.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

When was the last time they came to see you before that?

SPEAKER_00 2:04

It was it was a while ago. Well, once I made my board, um my father came one time, but you know, he's he's in Jersey. Um and I can't live in Jersey because my you know my stuff is here.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Um, and so he lives in Jersey, so I couldn't go there, so I didn't really have a place to go. And so I went to a halfway house. Um, you know, my first day, I got out, I took public transportation back to New York City. I went to Brooklyn, uh, checked in, um, checked in to go see my parole officer. Um, and the first thing I did was I think I went to several different like restaurants and just bought food. And, you know, you know, I got you know, I got my phone. And just like the first week was all, you know, just trying to, you know, orientate myself back into, you know, the the groove of like the society. I went down to the city, you know, and uh to go see how things have changed. I went to Chinatown. Um and you know, it was a different, everything was different, you know. It was not like me like re-entering into society again, it was me trying to integrate myself into a new society because everything was so different. It was almost two decades, you know, everything changed. Technology, the streets, the people.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Everything, dude. Like did you like did like women ever cross your mind you go whoring or anything? Like when you first got out, because it's been 17 years, bro.

SPEAKER_00 4:05

No, actually, you know what it was? It was more like um like like stuff like that was secondary to me. Like I knew like later on, you know, I'll I'll do that, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Did you talk to your mom? Like, why didn't you talk to your mom? Like, why didn't you quit? Couldn't you stay with your mom or somebody? Like, why only your dad?

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Well, well, my dad came to visit me uh at the end of my bed when he knew that I was gonna come home. Like that was the first time he came in like over 10 years. Right? So I mean, I feel a certain kind of way about that, you know. It's like now you know that I'm coming home, so now you're gonna try to like talk to me, you know? You know, like where were you, like in the middle of my bit? But also this, you know, also I want to do things my way. Because look, my whole life was about adapting and making the best out of situations.

SPEAKER_03 5:21

Yeah, it was.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

You know, that was you know, that's that was my whole life, you know what I mean? Yeah, ever since I was young, whatever situation I'm in, first I need to assimilate, right? And then after I assimilated, that's when I can start doing my own thing. But it's the assimilation aspect that that takes time. But yeah, that's you know, but I want to do things my

Family Distance And First Reunion

SPEAKER_00 5:50

way.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

So did your mom ever come see you? So you mentioned that your dad didn't like he saw you and your bid. Before that, he didn't come to see you for like 10 plus years. What about your mom or your siblings, your sisters?

SPEAKER_00 6:02

No, I didn't see them until look, I hold no grudges for my family. Like it is what it is. I wasn't I was in there a very long time. They got lives of their own, and they're struggling too, you know what I mean? It's not like you know, I'm like, yo, why didn't you come visit me? Like, you know, like like I feel like you threw me away. I was like, cool, you know, do your thing. I, you know, if you feel that you have to do your own thing first, like go ahead. I I have I have no qualms about it. And I still don't. I don't, you know, I don't hold it against them. I saw my family uh later on, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

How was that?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Um it was in the beginning, it was a little awkward, you know, because I I barely know them. They didn't seem like like family to me, like you know, like family family, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:04

So because they didn't seem like family family, I was sort of I don't know, I felt like I was in the outskirts a little bit. But it was during like Christmas time when I first saw them.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

So Paul, were they were your parents there when you got sentenced?

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I think I don't think they were when I got sentenced.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Trying to remember. Or did you ever see your mom break down or your dad break down because you got the sentence that you did, or they just numbed to it already? They didn't care anymore.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Well, no, they they definitely cared. Uh I saw them in the beginning of my bid. They used to come visit, but it was so far for them, you know. It was only towards like the middle of the bid where like they just stopped.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Like, did you ever see your mom or your dad break down in sadness or you know?

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I saw I saw my mom definitely break down.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

And how did it feel when you saw your mom? Like, you know, like how long like you know, like before, you know, how long, like what was the longest time that your mom didn't even come see you?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Uh it was years. It was years. I don't know exactly, but it was definitely like around like probably at least 10 years.

unknown 8:37

Man.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

So how did it feel when you like when you saw her? Like, you know, when you saw your mom for the first time in 10 years, or your, you know, like how did that feel? Like, or your sisters, or you know, well whoever. Like, you know, what was it going through your mind at that point?

SPEAKER_00 8:53

When I first saw them?

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Yeah, especially your mom, you know, because she's she must she must have been pretty close to you, just like, you know, probably closer to you. I don't know. Like, like, like like how was that experience for you?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Um it was slightly mixed, you know. Like I understood, you know what I'm saying? Like it's hard to see your child behind bars. I get it. Yeah. But it was uh it was very it was a very emotional like it was an emotional event when I first saw them.

SPEAKER_01 9:35

So Paul, you've always been a really tough dude, right? Like ever since I knew you and you know, we've been friends all these years, it's been great. You know, like how many times have you broken down and cried since I knew you all the way down to till now? That you can remember, you know?

SPEAKER_04 9:54

Let's see.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Um that you kind of want to kill yourself or you thought life was over, and that kind of just really broke you. Like I like I know you can take a lot because we've been through a lot of shit, but something that kind of broke you like, you know, like after we met, up until all the up until now.

Grief, Tears, And Emotional Limits

SPEAKER_00 10:10

So the first time when I probably was when my um when my grandmother passed away when I was in prison. That was the first time because you know, like I was I was really close to my grandmother. Um and you know, you not being able to go to a funeral, just zero off, like that really broke me. Uh and then like once I got sentenced, it was like maybe like two days later, and like you know, you really feel like the gravity of like the situation or what happened. Yeah, that was like the second time I cried. And then after that, that was it.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Never again. That was it.

Finding Work With A Record

SPEAKER_01 11:21

So now that now that like we're at the end of the interview, like what like of course you know you would what you had to do when you got out. Like, how hard was it for you to find like employment as an ex-con?

SPEAKER_00 11:38

The what?

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Like how like you know, how like like how was it trying to find employment as an ex-con? You know, like you're an ex- dude, you're like you were convicted murderer, right? Like, like how did people take that? You know, like like you know, like because you're you're one of the only you're one of the actually you're the only person I asked to write this book, right? It's because I think we have a connection, I think something of you that you might want to share, right? Like, you know, like like so when you first came out, like once all that emotional stuff was over, so did you cry when you saw your mom again? Like, you know, your you know your dad again in person?

SPEAKER_00 12:12

I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

You didn't even like it wasn't there anymore, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:17

Yeah, no, it wasn't. So I didn't.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

So I'm guessing after that you you try to go look for a job.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Well, I think that I set myself up really well to find a job. Um and so I had a I had a lot of really great networks that I made while I was in there. Right? Like my alumni. Um so the first after I came home um in January, I moved upstate um to earn my uh second degree in biology. So they led me on campus to finish that.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

What was your first degree?

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Uh mathematics.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Uh both bachelor's. So you got bachelor's in math and a bachelor's in biology.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:18

Okay, keep going.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Um, so I went on campus, and then I finished that, and then I came back to the city after I graduated. Um, so the network. So the network that I made then um that helped me to land jobs, basically.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

But how did you survive at that time? How did you what did you do for food? Where did you live, you know, like while you were in college, like while you were in school?

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Oh, so yeah, they so the network that I uh you know that I had basically found me a job. I found housing by myself. Um so I was working and going to school, basically.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

So this is the network you met in prison?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Like and and and this was how long after you got out, like maybe a month or two that you kind of found your way back in there for a year or two?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

It was after four months. So I came home in September 2015. By the end of by the beginning of January, I was already upstate um on campus.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Okay, wow. And then and you stayed there for two years. Like how was life there? Like, did you meet your wife there?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Uh so I I just focused on my studies pretty much. Um, finishing, you know, my degree, taking classes. I was only up there for a year, actually.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

Huh.

SPEAKER_00 14:58

Uh so wait a minute, 2016 to 2017. Yeah, 2016 to uh 2017.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Okay, so a little over a year, kind of a little bit give or take. So and then what happened after that? Like, did like like how did you get a job? Like, you know, what like what other changes came into your life? Because this was just recent. Like, what like you know, how did you meet your wife? Like, how you how did that go? Because you still have such a history.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

Well, every job that I took, they already knew my history already because I got referred, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 15:34

And so these are people who you know give people second chances. Um and so that's how I landed, you know, my jobs from them. Like it's so important to have a good sort of like social network when you come home. That's the most important thing, I think. Yeah, you're right. Um, and then can argue with that. And then once you start working, um, you know, you know, you start little by little, you know, start socializing yourself with people again. And that's what I did, you know. I met friends that I thought that that had stuck with me, you know, throughout the whole thing. Um, and those friends are all, you know, they're all non like non hangout people, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:33

So yeah.

Friendship, Fear, And High School Tests

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Um did you ever those are the people who really helped me?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Did you ever think we would be together for this long? I mean, from like the first day you saw me, like, you know, from when you guys were picking on me because I was a little freshman that knew how to smoke, you know, you guys didn't like me. I don't know. What like you know, like you know, up until now, like what would you, you know, what would you say for like you know, our friendship or the things that we've gone through? You know, like what would you say to me? What would you tell yourself? Like what like what kind of impression did you have of me? Like, oh how did that feel?

SPEAKER_00 17:10

You know, it's like I'm just glad that you didn't fully immerse yourself in that lifestyle, right? Yeah, because like here's the thing about me, like like me, like I I didn't discriminate in terms of like like people who didn't hang out. Like I never picked on people who didn't hang out, you know what I mean? Yeah, like like I wasn't a bully bully, you know? Yeah, like I never went around bullying kids, especially kids who went to school, who were like about you know, studying, whatever. Yeah, like yo, more power to you, you know. I'm I'm not the type of person to look down on people who want to live that right lifestyle. Like that just wasn't me. Like there were several times I stopped people from like beating up somebody because they because they were squares, you know. Yeah. Like, yo, they I mean they're the kids, they don't hang out. Like, why do you want to start up with kids just just because the people that I fought were the ones who acted like they were like the toughest guy, you know? So I guess like with you, you know, like we became like really cool, you know what I'm saying? You know, you you know, during that period.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

And so and so like I never I never try to like you know, like act like like I was myself when, you know, two people that I like, you know. I don't gotta put on like acts or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

Like, yo, take me for who I am. That's it. If you don't like me, you don't like me. That's all.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, you never did.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

You know, I never, you know, I never put on like an act where you know, like I gotta act tough. Like I don't have to act tough.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Like why do I have to act tough? Like, you know, that's that was just the way that I was.

SPEAKER_01 19:26

So why did you hand me that zippo that day? You know, like what did you see was going on that day? Do you recall? Because that kind of that was the kind of the time when I got picked on so much where like I, you know, like because of, I don't know. It was just like, you know, something you can't describe. So here's my thing. Like your life just kind of kind of fucks up, and that's what kind of when my life fucked up.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Here's my thing. If you can't help yourself, I can't help you. Do you know do you know do you know what that means?

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah, yeah. No, I I understand completely.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

If you're not willing to help yourself and you always have to rely on others to do it for you, then there's no way I could help you.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

But that kid that fought, he was huge. Like, and and I don't know why he even fought me. Like, I don't know why I got invited out, you know, and and and and I saw the kids that you used to hang out with, like Paul, those FT kids with that fucking dragon on his back. I don't know what the fuck happened to him. And all the other kids, like yeah, yeah, Paul No, not Paul Dou. Paul Lu was like the uh like the dinky FD kid, the other one, like with like the dragon on his back. I don't know where he was.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Oh, oh, big, big Paul.

SPEAKER_01 20:45

No, he wasn't big, he was scrawny too.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Oh, there was a guy named Diesel, remember Paul?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was a little jacked. Yeah, he was kind of uh he was pretty fit.

SPEAKER_00 20:56

No, he was fucking big.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Really?

SPEAKER_00 20:59

He was really poor. Fucking jacked as fuck.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

But but um but but like but like you know, like everybody was picking on me. Like what you know what you know, what was going on? Like, why did you guys take it out on me? I don't know what the fuck was going on. Like when I first got there, all I saw was a bunch of gold hair people at the lunchroom. And and because I smoked at the time, like you know, I went out to the yard and and you got and everybody had their fucking eyes on me. Like, why was that? Like, what was you know, like at that time of your life? Like, what was going on?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

I mean, what was going on with me at that time?

SPEAKER_01 21:33

No, like why did you pick on me, for instance? Like, why did you pick a pick on me? And like, what do you know, what were you thinking of when everybody was picking on me? Like, and because I had to fight such a big ass kid, right? And I was scared as shit. Oh, yeah. That was huge.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

So that's how you see how people are, right? It's sort of like this like if I put you in a situation where Like, what would your reaction be? Like, honestly, you know, like I would never, you know, let anybody get like beat the fuck down like that. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 22:11

I didn't know that, bro. I thought I was gonna die.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah, no, I mean I definitely wouldn't. You know, I'm not, you know, I I definitely wasn't that guy. Like, like I go to freshman Fridays, right? Remember, remember those freshman Fridays back in the day?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah, man, you guys fucking put me on a tree. What do you mean you don't pick on kids? You're lying again. You picked on me.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

No, but look, I don't, but those, you know, that's a little different, you know what I'm saying? Like doing things like that where you know nobody really gets hurt, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not I was never the one lining kids up and smacking them. Like, like you ever see me like you know, like like beat up kids?

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah, like Chris Song shit.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Yeah, you uh you ever see me do like shit like that? I never did shit like that.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

No, no, you didn't.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Ever. I never did anything like that. I never went to Freshman Fridays where you know I lined kids up and smacked them. Like, like why? I I thought that was like the dumbest shit ever. So, but then like I want to see how people are, you know?

SPEAKER_03 23:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Like, what would you do in a certain situation, you know? Because look, you were fairly new at that time.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah, I was a freshman, dude. I was scared of shit, man. Everybody was shitting on me all the time. Everybody.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Like you were, you know, you were new at the time. Yeah. And the thing is, is this is that yo, like, and that's the thing, yeah. You're scared, people get scared, but you know, what do you do with that fear, right? That's that's what just what that's what I just wanted to see.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Why did you want to see it from me? You know, I did hit him, like we did fight, it was fun, but like, you know, what did that you know get you? Like, you know, what like did you see me like did you see me any different after that or anywhere?

SPEAKER_00 24:05

I mean, didn't we become friends after that?

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Yeah, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

So yeah, of course, you know, like I didn't know you, you know, before that.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah. But you wanted to see a good fight though, that's why you gave me the zippo.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

We never, we never hung out, we never like, you know, no, like I see you, but you know, that was like the extent of it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 24:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:29

Yeah.

Love, Breakup, And Co-Parenting

SPEAKER_01 24:31

So the next part would be how like how's life for you now? Like, you know, like what do you do? How did you meet your wife? Like in that kind of this short five years that you've been out. Like, how did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Um, I met her through mutual friends, pretty much. You know, that was the time I was just you know, getting back into relationships. Um really want to find somebody that I can just like vibe with. Um and you know, she came out one day with when I was with a group of friends, and we started talking, and that was it.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

And when was this? This was like after college, right? When you started working?

SPEAKER_00 25:20

Yeah, yeah, once I once I moved back to uh the city.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

And what year was this?

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Uh let's see. 2018.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Oh, and then you had a kid. And how old is your kid? Uh uh son?

SPEAKER_00 25:40

He's three.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

He's three. So so do you do you like are are are you and your wife okay now? Like are you guys together? Everything's cool.

SPEAKER_00 25:52

I mean, we're okay, but we're not together anymore now.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Like, like why not? Like, like, like I don't have to write this in a story, but like you know, how did that happen? Were you were you in need of somebody at the time because you just got out? Did she not accept you? Or life just kind of just make its own way, turn? Like, how did that end up?

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Well, well, we just we just didn't mess well. Uh we had broken up before the baby. And then once the baby came, you know, I was like, all right, let's let's try it. Let's try to see if we can make it work. Um, but we didn't break up on bad terms. Okay. Yeah, we we still co-parent, we still talk, we still chill. Yeah. I mean, it's not a bad relationship.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Like, so, so, like, would but your kid is really small now. You'd like you like taking care of him? You like, do you enjoy being a dad?

SPEAKER_00 26:45

I love being a father. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Does any sense in you, Paul, like because of the things you went through? Because I'm also, you know, like like you know, I'm writing my own book too. Like, like the other book too. Like, you there was there any sense in you because your dad was so shitty, just like my dad, that you kind of felt obligated to be the best dad you can in any way you can.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah, I I definitely said that um, you know, to myself. Like, I don't want to raise him the way that my family raised me. Like, I want to be there for all his you know, milestones. And like I want him to know that I got his back whenever. And you know, I'll be there. I'm not gonna miss like his like important things in his life. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, I want to be better than how my family was. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Like, are you are you are you surprised the way things turned out the way it is? Like, you know, are you like are you content with your life now?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

I mean I mean I'm definitely content where my life is in terms of like my family life, right? I mean, even though me and my you know son's mother didn't work out, we're not in a bad situation. You know, we look out for each other still. I wish that we could have been a better fit where you know I could have stayed with her and been like a one family unit.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

But even if it's not, you know, we make sure that our son knows that that we're both there for him, regardless. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Yeah, pretty much. So, Paul, one last we're gonna keep recording and on the last question. So I kind of last question is could it it might be like the culmination of our story because because we've been through a lot of the same things, right? Um, the only difference was that you know maybe your my parents cared for me a little bit more than you did. You know, you did after hearing your story, because if my parents didn't even care when I came home when I was 12, I think I would end up on the streets like just as bad, if not even worse. Right. Yeah. You know, I think we've seen people get arrested, people ruin their lives, and I think maybe not maybe 80% of the people we knew from childhood have ruined lives now, you know, at least not as happy as we are, right? Like last time we we what we drank um at the you know at the bar, like you we can only list like maybe two people that we knew that actually have lives now and that aren't you know like that aren't living like shit?

SPEAKER_03 29:54

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Yeah, so so like now was this entire change, of course, it was gradual for you, but was there something about it that that kind of made you believe in the change? For instance, did you find God? Did you find Jesus? You know, like was there something about it that kind of made a difference when you were going through all this? Something spiritual?

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Uh something spiritual.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

You know, like did you like you know, did you go to church? Like, were you ever a church person? Like, you know, did that?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

I went to church sometimes, but I wouldn't necessarily say it was something like spiritual. Like here's the thing when you're sitting literally by yourself inside a present cell, when they close the doors, the only person there is you, right? And you know, there's so many battles going on inside you, especially like in a place like prison, where you have long stretches of time to yourself, and you you know, you think about you know everything, right? You think about all the regrets that you have, and you think about you know all the different things that you could have done, all the things that you were missing, you know, you know, it's it's just like a jumble of like things like all together. Um I felt that my life isn't over, that's when I was like, okay, like I can actually have a life after this. So what type of person do I want to be when when this is all over? And that's like the pivotal sort of like like moment that that that you decide, okay, this is not the type of person that I want to be, and these are not the things that I want to do, and this is not the thing that I want to be defined by. Once you get to that point, because you can only change if you want to change, right? So during the moments when, you know, when I was by myself, these are the questions that I asked, you know. And the answers that I, you know, after the long reflection, after all that time, the answer that I got for myself was that I'm not gonna be defined by my life in prison, and the person that I want to become is not the person that I was.

Solitude, Change, And A New Identity

SPEAKER_01 32:49

What do you see yourself like? Because we're in our like early 40s, right? So what do you see yourself in the next 20 years? Like just kind of imaginary thought. What would you see yourself before you retire? What would you be doing?

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Uh you know, there's nothing grand about Surah, like my plans. What I want to do is I want to be retired, I want to see my son grow up. Hopefully, I'll have somebody that I can love and marry and have that life with. Maybe have, you know, like one more child. Um, and I just want to live, you know, life like that, you know, have the people that I love around me and live like really simple life.

unknown 33:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

And I think that will be like the best for me, honestly. Like I have, you know, I don't care about like all those grand things like making millions of dollars, and you know, like that's just not not interesting for me. It's just, you know, the people that I love, I want them around me. You know, I want to see, you know, my children grow up and you know have their own lives and just you know, live life, do the things that I want to do, do the things that I want to enjoy, do it with the people that I love. That's it.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Damn. And and and so to sum it up, Paul, like you know, like we've been through so especially to you, right? Uh my entire experience in China has been 17 years, just like your experience in prison. Right? It's good it's vastly contrasting. And sometimes, yeah, we we we do need to self-reflect, especially at this age, right?

Regret And Advice To His 12-Year-Old Self

SPEAKER_01 34:42

We're kind of going through a mid middle midlife crisis. What the last question would be to sum things up, like, do you have do you regret any of the things that you did in the past? And and the second question following up with that is if you were if you were to go back to when you were 12 or that age when before you joined you know organized crime, before you joined Shadows, like what would you tell yourself? So it's a two-part question. Yeah, it's a very serious question. It's a two-part question because this is what sums up your life up to this point where you still have a full life ahead of you, right? But your knowledge up to this point is can this is completely different from a way it was before. Right? That's the art of storytelling because you had an up, you had a very, very bad down, and now you're back up again. Right. What you will be in the future is not going to be lower than you were what you were before, for sure. Right. So the first question, just like I said, with with kind of where do you you know where do you place that? And and and is anything that you regret doing that you that you know that you wish you didn't? Right? This is more of a conceptual kind of question. The second would be what would you tell yourself if you had a chance to go back when you were 12?

SPEAKER_00 36:14

You know, this this question is so difficult because like obviously I do have a lot of regrets in my life. And you wouldn't be human if you don't, you know. Um like I didn't set out to you know destroy anybody's life or take anybody's life. Um but my experiences shaped me into the person that I am now. Um like of course I I wish I never would have you know gone to prison. You know, I feel like I wasted a lot of my life being in prison. But at the same time, I accept it because I I wasn't a good person, you know what I mean? I wasn't I wasn't necessarily like bad bad, but I definitely wasn't a good person either. There's a lot of stuff that I do regret in my life, um, but then there's a lot of lessons that I've learned throughout this journey that that I'm really happy about as well. And you know, struggle's a struggle, you know. And you know, if you don't struggle, then like what's the point as well? You know what I mean? There's you know, people have easy lives, um, and you know, good for them. You know, that just wasn't in my cards, but I learned a lot throughout my journey as well. Stuff that nobody else can relate to, stuff that nobody else can feel. You know, I felt those things, you know. You know, they don't know a lot of people don't know the struggle of you know missing out and really appreciating the little things in their lives. I know because I lost all those little things. Yeah, so my appreciation for those things is going to be totally different than those people that just had an easy life all their life, you know. Um yeah, I mean at the end of the day, I do regret a lot of stuff that I've done.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

So um so Paul, if if if that you though you put it great, I like you really put it great. But if you I like I totally understand like why this is conflicting, because yet one, you because you've been through it all, that's why it made you the man you are today. You could have made the same mistake later on in life and really regret it when you're 60 or 70, right? But if you did have a chance to go back now in time when you were 12, when you were slashing those tires, like what would you say to yourself? What would you tell yourself if you could?

SPEAKER_00 39:20

What would I tell myself?

SPEAKER_01 39:23

Yeah. You're kind of like if that was your son when he was twelve.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

So I would tell at that time I thought that was the only choice that I had. Right? I thought that you know these decisions were the only decisions that I can make. But that put a restraint on myself, right? So maybe I would tell myself that there are other choices that you can make. That doesn't have to be living this life. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. That you know, don't always lock yourself in a box that you know that you think that this is the only way to live your life.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Alright.

Two Final Lines And Listener Questions

SPEAKER_01 40:28

And that's Paul's story. We recorded for over seven hours, and by the time the editor was done, it became five parts condensed. And honestly, I still don't think we've scratched the surface of a life like that. But I'm glad he trusted me with it. And if you made it all the way here, you already know why. This one was different. He left me with two things near the end that I keep turning over. Survival isn't success. And loyalty isn't love. I'll leave you with those. They don't need my help. No, I want to bring Paul back. There's more there. I think you feel that too. So if you have questions for him, things you wish I had pushed harder on, things that are still sitting with you after all five parts. Send them to theunclewong at gmail.com. I read every single one. And if you have questions to compile, we're gonna do a part six. Let's bring them back. This is Uncle Wong signing out.