S3E4: Paul's Story - Standing Outside - Pt 3/5

A life doesn’t always snap in half with one decision. Sometimes it just gets comfortable. Paul walks us through the stretch where Chinatown stops being a hangout and starts being a system: sweeps tighten the streets, money sources dry up, and the pressure to keep a lifestyle turns petty crimes into riskier moves. We get honest about what it feels like to be 16 or 17, convinced that stopping means the end of your life, and why that mindset makes fighting cops and pushing limits feel “normal.”

Then the story hits the moment nobody plans for. A gun comes out, everything happens in seconds, and only later does Paul learn someone died. From there, it’s the part most people never hear in detail: how arrests really happen, how one person cooperating can reshape everyone’s fate, and why New York homicide charges can land hard even when the story feels complicated. Paul describes the shock of getting taken in after trying to change direction, the years waiting in Rikers Island, and the crushing finality of hearing “17 to life.”

We also talk prison reality without movie filters: being tested as an Asian inmate, learning the rules of “papers” and prison courts, witnessing violence up close, and the slow grind of transfers through places like Sing Sing, Clinton, and Green Haven. Finally, we get to the SHU “box” and the unexpected pivot Paul describes, where isolation forces reflection and reading becomes the first real step toward rehabilitation and personal change.

If this conversation hits you, subscribe so you don’t miss the next part, share it with someone who thinks this kind of life has a clean starting line, and leave a review with the question you want us to answer next.

Please contact me at theunclewong@gmail.com

Transcript

Part Three Setup And Recap

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Yo, what's up everyone? Welcome back to Asian Uncle. Part three of my conversation with Paul. And if you're just fighting this, please go back to episode one. Seriously, start there. Last time we listened as the drift happened from the neighborhoods to Chinatown. The pool halls, the arcades, the older guys who noticed him hanging around. There was no official moment where everything started. It kind of just did. And I think that's the part most people don't understand about how this works. It doesn't just announce itself. It just gets comfortable. Alright. Now let's pick up where we left off. And that's what got and that's what got you in the first time, or this was you just never got out.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

No, no, this is this is the time where that person died, so that was the time. There were many times like in the middle where where I got arrested, right? Right. But it wasn't for like, you know, there were I was in Central Booking like three times before then.

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Right, because like I remember you robbed Hollywood once. Like you were telling me how you like fighting cops because it's more, it's it's fucking more challenging. Like what happened? Yeah, like what happened during the because I saw you afterwards. Like we went to the movies afterwards, bro. Like, I don't know why I don't know why I don't know what the fuck we went to the movies, but but we did. But like what you know, like so that was part of the times that you were you know kind of fucked up. Like, can you can you like can you tell me about that? Because that's pretty important. This is that your downfall now.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Yeah.

Money Dries Up And Robberies Start

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Um, so you know, so basically, yeah, that it started when you know they did all the sweeps, right? And then my sort of stream of money was getting caught off everywhere. And you know, when you're used to like a certain lifestyle, and when you're used to getting things what you want, you know, it's hard, you know what I mean? It's hard to just fall back to you know something more civilian-like, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Like, you know, I wasn't going to school, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

You know, I didn't, you know, I I had what I the only thing I had was my street smarts, right? Yeah. Um, but at the end of the day, like, not even that helped me, right? So um, yeah. Uh, you know, I just I robbed Hollywood, um, got arrested, you know, came home. Um, and I had to figure out other ways to make money, you know?

SPEAKER_01 2:55

So you just kept robbing? Like, how did you get taken down for that? Like, were you taken down on the spot? Yeah, uh-huh. I was. So that's why you like fighting cops? Yeah. Yep. Like what the fuck was going on in your head, bro? Like, what was going on your head at that time? Like, did you like were you like like did you feel like you were coming to the end of the road?

SPEAKER_02 3:19

You know, as like a as like a 16, 17-year-old kid, right? You just you know, you're just like, yo, if I don't do this, like this is like the end of my life right here, right? So and I've always been a fighter, so you know, that's just you know, knee-jerk reaction. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 3:41

You know, I it it was just it was just instinctively like I'm not gonna let them take me, type type action. Um, but yeah, I definitely felt like I was spiraling at that time. You know, um, I didn't have the network that I used to have because everybody's inside. Um and it's not like I can like take over anything because it was too hot.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

You know, like at that time, nobody wanted to take that risk of like trying to take down a block.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Yeah. And so the only job you could probably end up finding was collecting from like you're collecting for the loan sharks.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

You were the only Korean guy. You brought in one Chinese one time, and everybody else, all your hang nines were mostly all Chinese.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Uh yeah, yep, exactly. So when you Yeah, so Jimmy, Tewei, Tony, Ken, uh Chris, let's see who else. Uh see Fake A, Tingai. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was the only Korean.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Damn, you must have you must have meant something because you made it up, like you were probably the one that made it up the

How The Chinatown Crew Was Built

SPEAKER_01 5:05

highest as a Korean. Yeah, actually, yeah. Like all you had to do was answer to Achang. Like you didn't have to answer to anybody else. Like who did he like who did he answer to?

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Uh well A-chang was the was the head.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

So he was the one taking so he was the one taking um so he was the one that's signing contracts with with with the uh with the tong, with Aliang.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

He was a Tong.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

So he was part of it, and he hired you guys instead. So he just took you guys in. So you were part of the Tong, you weren't just hired guns. Because some of them were just hired by the Tongs, but they weren't part of the Tong, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Yeah, no. Um, so Acharang was a member of uh Aliang.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Okay. And what was his job? Like, what did he do? Like, like what type of people did you meet? Like, you know, when you were with him, like crazy meetings and shit. So let's see. Uh-huh. Like, do you ever meet some old dudes?

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Um, yeah, I mean, I met a lot of older people, but that was after the time of um Tossa um Uncle Seven.

unknown 6:20

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

So once Uncle Seven died, um that's when that's when my Dido uh went up in rank.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

So was this with Uncle Benny too from FD? Was it the same error?

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah, same error, yeah.

unknown 6:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:41

Benny Chasok, yeah, yeah. It was all the same.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Okay, so who was the Dido again? Um at the left and put Achang in place?

SPEAKER_02 6:48

No, Achan was the Dido afterwards. After uh Chasok.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

So Uncle Seven, right? Is that what we call it? Uh-huh.

unknown 6:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, Uncle Seven. Yeah, what year was this?

SPEAKER_02 6:59

This like this was This was 92.

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Okay, so okay, so pretty much like, okay, okay. So he already took over and then you kind of followed him. So when did you meet him? Like, like was he one of the people that you met all the way like in the beginning that that that took you in?

SPEAKER_02 7:15

So so the one who took me in was uh Faye.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

And you met Achan later on. So he followed uh didn't Feige follow um Achan too?

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Yeah, mm-hmm, he did.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Okay, so he was already in there before you.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yep, he was. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

So after you so now so

The Shooting And Learning Someone Died

SPEAKER_01 7:40

now moving on to the story, that's that's very good. So after moving on to the story, like once you shot that person, was he dead on the spot or was it afterwards that you knew he was dead?

SPEAKER_02 7:50

It was only afterwards I found out. I didn't know at the at the time.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

How'd you find out what happened? Like, like kind of bring me through what happened when you pulled out that gun. And like of course, that was just like really quick reaction of what happened afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

So, you know, things like that. It happens really quickly. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um he pulled out the gun. Uh, so the the person next to me, um, he had a gun. Of course. And then he shot, and then after that, we you know, we just left, right? Because we couldn't hang around, right? Right, right. But then like we didn't know like exactly what happened, you know what I mean? Right.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

So you didn't know.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

So basically he was waiting for us to like stop us from like getting at him, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

Um, but but I mean there's there's gonna be more of us than you, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, like I didn't go in there, you know, thinking somebody was gonna die.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

You know, who you know who wants that, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

That's bad for business for everybody. Yeah. Uh but you know, things happen really quickly. And once he pulled out, you know, the person next to me pulled out, and that's what happened. And what happened? I don't even know if the other guy, you know, got off a shot.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Like, did you run off afterwards? That you know, of course it happened very quick. You just ran out afterwards, right?

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yeah, yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

And how was that trauma? Like, you know, like so when did you know he was dead? You know, like how how long did he last? How did you get caught?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

So I found out just like uh maybe like a week later. And then at that time, like I, you know, it was hearsay, but I'm just like, you know, I was a teenager. I was like, well, I didn't, you know, I didn't shoot him, so whatever, right? Yeah. Um and you know, I'm like, oh, it was it was self-defense anyway, you know, he pulled out too. So but at that time, you don't understand the law.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

You know, you're just going by like what you think is gonna happen. So, you know, when when things happen like that, um, you know, I could have ran, I could have gone to a different country, whatever, but I I just didn't know, and I didn't. You know, there was some part of me that was like, oh shit, like of course, like, you know, it's gonna hit you, you know. Like like somebody actually died, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you get that feeling like, holy fuck, like why, you know, why did that happen? Like you, you know, it shouldn't have happened. It wasn't until later that I fully felt like the real remorse, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

And I did, you know, I went through a period where I'm just like, you know, I felt

Arrested After A Deal And Interrogation

SPEAKER_02 11:00

really responsible for what happened. And it shouldn't have happened, you know.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

But when this so so when did you get arrested? You get arrested directly after that? You know, how do they find out?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

I got arrested. I got arrested because uh one of the people who were involved, he got arrested and he got interrogated, and he made a deal.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

So you became the shooter.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

I mean, it doesn't even matter if I was a shooter or not, right? Right. Because there's no self-defense law. It doesn't matter if you're the shooter or not the shooter.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Um, in New York, everybody's gonna get the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Yeah, you're all charged in because of the law, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Yeah, I mean his thing was like, you know, he made a plea bargain, basically.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Right.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

He's like, if I give everybody up, then you know, it gave me less time. Whereas myself, you know, they're like, hey, you know, you know, once I got arrested, you know, when when I was going through my trial period, they're like, hey, just just give, you know, you're you know, you're you're a man young and everybody else is old, you know what I mean? Yeah, just testify against them, we'll give you less time.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

But you know, I come, you know, when when I was hanging out, you know, that just wasn't what it was, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Because I'm thinking like, okay, these guys are older, these guys have been in the game for a while. So if they don't say anything, I don't say anything, then we'll all make off, right? Yeah, the prisoner's dilemma. You know, that's the that's the whole prisoner's dilemma, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, correct. Yeah. Um, and so that's what I believed.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Right. Um, and then once my lawyer was like, well, somebody's testifying against you, I'm like, okay, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Yeah, I didn't expect it.

Trying To Change Then Getting Surrounded

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Um, but how did you get taken in? Like, did you go in yourself or were they to run down your door? What did they do?

SPEAKER_02 13:13

So that was the time I was going to college.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Oh, so you graduated from Dozo?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

No, I I went and got my GD.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Okay, okay. You got your GD and then you went to college. Which college did you go to? I went to Rutgers. Where? Ruckers. Oh, Rutgers. Okay, okay. So you were already in college?

SPEAKER_00 13:34

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

So you kind of already left this life behind, or you were just kind of going there just for the fuck of it, like high school?

SPEAKER_02 13:42

That was a time where I really wanted to make a little change in my life, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Like I left, you know, I left a lot of things alone. And I knew that I couldn't do it forever, you know what I mean? Nothing ever lasts, right? Yeah. Um, I mean, I was still doing, you know, little things here and there, but not to the scale that I was doing before. So I started college. Um it was my second semester. And I pulled up into the parking lot. I had my girlfriend next to me and two of my friends. And then once I got out of the car, I got surrounded and I got taken in.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

Like you didn't know you were like you had heat at that time because you know the person died, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Yeah, but it's been like like almost a year already, you know what I'm saying? Like you forget, you know?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Right, right, right. So when you got so when you got brought in, like, like, um like what was your feeling at that time? You know, like like did like did it really kick in when you got sentenced, or did it really kick in when you got brought in?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

When I got brought in, I didn't say anything.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

I I was just mute the whole time. Well, they're like, well, we're gonna charge you with murder. And then once I got into Rikers, you know, it's not it's not my first road on Rikers, so it wasn't like difficult, like my time in in jail. Right. But the you know, the gravity of like what happened, you know, of course, you're just like, holy shit, this, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm not I'm not in here for any of the little crap that I used to be in for, you know?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Like the gravity of the situation like hit me like completely, just smack the shit out of me.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

When? Like when you were in Rikers?

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Yeah, sitting in Rikers Island.

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Like what was going through your head? Like, like, you know, what did you feel? Like, were you just like, you know, fuck my life is over? Or you know?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Yeah. That's basically what I felt like. I'm fucked royally.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

But you've been out of the game for a year already. In that year, you already kind of changing your lifestyle. You kind of got away from it after that shooting, right? That you that you pretty much stayed away completely after a year, and then they took you in.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, I felt in a sense where, you know, it's in one sense, I was like, okay, you know, it's everything that I did is catching up to me now.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

And in one sense, I'm like, all right, well, it's not like I don't deserve it, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

But in another sense, I'm like, but the timing is so bad where you know, um you're just calling a change or yeah, you just started your new life, you know?

SPEAKER_02 16:49

Yeah,

Three Years In Rikers Before Trial

SPEAKER_02 16:50

exactly. Like, so that was my that was my whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

So so how so how long were you in Rikers before you were sentenced?

SPEAKER_02 17:00

Uh I was here three years.

SPEAKER_01 17:02

In Rikers before you were sentenced. Yep, before I was sentenced. And you were charged with just murder? First degree murder?

SPEAKER_02 17:14

Uh well no, second degree.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Yeah, second degree homicide. Um it was uh it was not intentional. It was uh um depraved indifference.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Um yeah, that was that was what it is. But how many years did you get? I got 17 to life.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Damn bro. Like like how did it like so so when you broke down you knew you were gonna get a long sentence? Like, did you how did that hit you when you got your sentence? Like what you know, like when did that reality hit you?

SPEAKER_00 17:58

You don't feel it until you get sentenced. Like once a judge is like I sentenced you to this. Did you have a jury?

SPEAKER_02 18:08

And then and then he tells you, you know, this was this was uh you know, it was heinous, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, and then and then you feel it, you know, you know, like like like you're sort of numb during that whole process, but when you're sitting in that cell by yourself and you know, you come back to your cell and you're sitting there and then everything just rushes in and you're like I'm going to be doing 17 years in prison. And you're just a kid, like I wasn't even 20 yet, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was a teenager. So when that when that hits you, you're just you know, it's like you feel it, you know?

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Yeah, you definitely feel it.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Like what year was like were you arrested?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Uh 97.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

And and it and it wasn't until 2000 that you got tried.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yep, it wasn't until 2000 that I went upstate. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Like, where did you go upstate? Sing Sing?

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Uh yeah, several places. Sing Sing, Clinton. Uh after Clinton, I went to Green Haven. Green Haven, I went to Eastern, Eastern, I went to Katsacky, Katsack, I went to Woodburn, and then Woodburn, I came.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

What why? Why? Like why like why so many places? What justified that?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Oh, they don't they don't let you stay in one place for long.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

So two years per place or three years per place?

SPEAKER_02 19:57

No. Um so Clinton, a couple of years in uh Clinton. Um from Clinton, I went to Green Haven. I spent probably nine years in Green Haven. Uh and then I got into a college program that brought me to Eastern.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

Oh, that brought you to Eastern because you were in a college program. Because you were in a college program, it brought you to Eastern?

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah. Because they have uh like a satellite school program there. And then from there, I got into trouble

Sentencing Shock And Moving Upstate

SPEAKER_02 20:40

and went to uh the box.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

So let's backtrack first. So so like when you when you got sentenced, right? Um, this was already three years after you did at Rikers. When you got sentenced, was your dad there? Was your mom there? Uh was anybody there? Did anybody come see you at Rikers?

SPEAKER_02 21:04

I mean, yeah, I have visits here and there. My family came here and there. Uh there was a stretch of time when I didn't see my family at all. Like a Rikers time for like in the beginning, you know, I just had like just just like a like a string of girls just to come visit.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

But after after a while, that phase two is too long, you know what I mean? Of course, of course. Uh but you know, I have friends who came to see me almost to the end. Not not often, but you know, they came.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah. Um that's what's up. Yeah. My brother and my mom went, and he wrote a letter to me when I was uh, you know, like when he was serving his time too. He was like, you know, Wayne, it was a good thing that you didn't get too deep. Or, you know, otherwise, like none of us ended up. Up well, you know. So like you know, when you heard that, where did you go first? Like, like you know, after the sentence, like where did you go first and for how long?

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Like which maximum security so I was in Sing Sing for a year, okay. And then I went to um Clinton for I think two or three years. Okay. And then from Clinton I went to Greenhaven for nine years. Um, and then I went to Eastern uh for I think three years.

unknown 22:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

And then I was in the box for uh six months.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

The box. We'll talk about that later. So when you first got there, so you never spent time in and this is all upstate New York maximum security, right? So you're serving 17 to life, like what like when you got transferred

Being Tested And Fighting To Survive

SPEAKER_01 23:05

to your first place, um, Sing Sing, like how hard was it adjusting? Because that's obviously different from Rikers. It's another playing field, right? Like how you know, how was that? Like, you know, how did you feel? Because that's come you know, that's like another life changer there. You already adjusted for a year after all this bullshit, right? Yeah, I was already in college at that time, like we already lost contact. You were you know, you were doing your shit. I heard about you know, like that something happened to you, but I never knew what it was, and that you went in, you know, kind of already, you know. So what happened at Sing Sing? Like how you know how was adjusting to it? How was it the first experience? Because that was the hardest part at first, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Yeah, I mean, as like an Asian person, it's gonna be tough in prison, right? But my personality is not, you know, like I'm not just gonna like meekly like just sit down and like give people my shit if they say run your shit, right? Yeah. So I was literally like, all right, first of all, I need to make a name for myself in prison. Number one, right? Because I'm not gonna let people rob me or freaking think I'm gonna push over. Um so in the beginning of my bid, uh, you know, I fought a lot. I I went through that time where you know, I just I was more reactionary than thinking, you know?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Right. How long did that last? Like until you found your group. Like, you know, of course you found a group of Asians again, right? Like how long did that last until you found your group? Or did it was always like that?

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Well the first couple of years were the probably the most tough because there were barely Asians where I was. And even if there were Asians, like there were they were pretty like they were pretty meek, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, they didn't really and there were fobs too, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So so it was like like they didn't they didn't protect themselves well, you know? It wasn't it wasn't really until I got to like Green Haven where I saw like Asians like, oh okay, like you know, not like have some sort of power within the system, you know?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

So like how many fights did you get into like like a week, like when you first got in there, like in Sing Singh and before you found your crew? Like how many years was that? And how like you know, what was it like? Like you just get into fights like what every day or twice a week?

SPEAKER_02 25:42

No, not every day. Uh it was it was only it was only when you know they they try to play me because I'm Asian. Like what would they try to like you know take advantage of me?

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Like the black people?

SPEAKER_02 25:55

Yeah, black, Spanish, like doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

Like, what about white people? Did they they did they did they shit on you too? Like was there any Nazi groups in there, like crazy fucking reds?

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Yeah, I mean the whole jail is everywhere is gangs, bloods, crypts, Latin Kings, um, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Did it all give you shit?

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Well, no, of course not everybody gave me shit. But you're always gonna have those people who are gonna give you shit, right? They're gonna test you. That's the thing. When you're in prison, you get tested. They try to say who you are and what you do. You're gonna get tested 100%. It's what you do when you get tested that's gonna, you know, shape the outcome of the rest of your business.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Like what was going on in your head at the time? Like, like did you even care anymore? Like, or were you just like fuck it? I'm gonna just survive in here, or did you even think about it? Yeah, in the beginning, that was my thing, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:56

I'm young, you know, I'm in jail. I'm not gonna let anybody take my, you know, take my take my you know, commissary, my clothes, my sneakers. Like, no, you know, I'm not gonna let people, you know, use me to, you know, bring in shit into jail. I'm not gonna be anybody's mule. And that was my thing, you know. So yeah, if I felt threatened, I'm gonna fight. You know, knee-jerk reaction. I'm gonna just swing.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Did you ever get hurt really bad when you're in there? Like after that.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Uh I never got hurt really, really bad, no.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

So what was like, so what would

Courts Gangs And Watching Someone Die

SPEAKER_01 27:35

like like out of the oldest experience, like what would be the most like sickest moment or the most disturbing thing you saw in prison? You know, something that just kind of left a scar on you, whether it be you or an inmate or anything else that happened, any of these places that you stay?

SPEAKER_02 27:49

Uh I mean, I've seen people die in front of me in jail.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Like, can you describe that a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Or you know, like like you know what happened kind of just to So in the jail there's courts, and each court belongs to a certain group. Yeah. So the Asians had a court. You know, the Jamaicans were the court right next to us. Um so every group has a court. You can't walk on anybody's court unless you're part of that court, right? Uh there was a kid, uh, I think he was I think he was a Latin king. And then there was a guy like a soldier, he was a blood. Um and you know, they got into a little bit of fight, but the blood kid pulled out a shank and he started shanking him, and then the kid ran onto our court because he stabbed, you know what I mean? Yeah, and then you know the guy stabbed him again, and then you know, the the correction officers that came brought the kid in, but he was already dead.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Like what did it like, you know, were they scared more scared of you like because you were a murderer, like you know, as opposed to a rapist or a thief? Otherwise, you probably wouldn't.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Oh, rapists are the bottom of the barrel.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

So how did they test you at first? You know, like just like how that kid got tested to some stupid, right? Like, you know, like were you ever in danger of that? You know, like of course they probably asked you what you did to get in here, you know, what happened? Like, how was that initiation process like of going in?

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Well, no, I mean the thing is is that if you walk on to any court, you gotta bring your papers. Papers as in like, you know, what tars, you know, your sentence, um, and make sure that you that you're not a snitch. You bring your papers, they look at it. Um, and then you know, that's that's pretty much it. Like Asians, like we we really looked out for each other, you know.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Like this was in Greenhaven where you stayed for nine years.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Yeah. Asians, I mean, in Greenhaven had the most Asians. There was like 30 of us.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Like with any guys from back in the days like that that that that that we knew from the streets? Like was any guys that you knew from the streets, like that was in that clique in New Haven?

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yeah. At Greenhaven? There was a couple of guys that I knew from the streets that came in. Like um FT Willie came in. Little Willie.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Oh, yeah, I remember him.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Um Little Willie and I. We're still we're still really good friends now, Willie, me and Willie. Um, I still see him. I still, you know, we still hang out once in a while. So Willie was in there. Um via uh let's see, oh, Via Danny was in there. Um you know me and me and Danny, we had mad beats back then, but when we were inside, we were mad closed.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah, it changes you, doesn't it? Huh? It like like the entire system's different, right? When you're on the streets and when you're in there, it's not it's not you just yo, yo, when you're in there, it's it's us against everybody else, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah. So it doesn't matter what group you in. Um I was with uh I was with Dinosaur and Sing Sing. I was with Shadow, I was with Via Johnny, um I was with Ducky, Duck Ty. Um and you know, we all we all broke bread together. Um you know, it wasn't it wasn't like did you see Ray at any point? No, I didn't. I didn't see GK.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Um, I wasn't at max most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

I mean uh he was in Sing Sing for a minute, but he was in mediums most of the time, though.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

So so so so you were maximum because of your charge? My charge and how much time I had. So how many years do you have to have to be in that place, like New Haven? I guess our Green Haven in these places, like 15 years to life.

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Yeah, you gotta have some sort of life bid or um a long, long bid. Or or if you go to the box and your classification goes up, then you go there.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

So my classification was really high. Um because this wasn't my first uh felony arrest.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

Yeah, so so so that's why my classification was super high. Uh that's the reason why I was in Max's most of the time until I got to Woodburn. Whoopern was my first uh medium, actually.

SPEAKER_01 32:47

Medium security prison.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Uh-huh. And that was uh until I had maybe like two years left to go home.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

Ah, okay. And how long? How long were you in there for?

SPEAKER_02 33:02

What do you mean, uh Wooburn?

SPEAKER_01 33:04

No, no, the entire time, like all together in prison, like not including 17 years. You did the full 17.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

Mm-hmm.

unknown 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Like, did you see anything else that was really disturbing besides like that kid getting you know stabbed to death? Like, was any rape? Or is there any like something crooked? You know, any sick shit that you saw that kind of tested your line that you can still remember to this day.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

I mean, like, what do you consider sick though? Like, I don't I don't know, like, what's your definition of like sick? I mean, you see stuff there every day, you see drama there every day, you see fights, people getting cut, people dying, you know, people, you know, I mean the whole system is sick, but like what do you consider like sick sick?

SPEAKER_01 33:54

Like, like, like rapes, for instance.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Oh, I have I have never seen a rape, but but it definitely does happen. Absolutely. Right. I've never seen it with my own two eyes, but um, and nobody ever tried to do me like that, but but and even if they did, bro, I'm not gonna write that shit in the book. Oh, hell fucking no. Like, I would never let anybody fucking do that.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Fuck that. Dude, you have to kill me for that shit.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Oh, 100%. 100 fucking percent.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

So I will have no reason to live after that. Yeah. So, so, so like, so once so like kind of once you got adjusted, time went by quick. So, what was like your typical day and what was your typical weekend like after adjustment? Kind of walk me through like a typical day and a typical weekend. You know, like I don't know what kind of differentiates

The Box Isolation And A Turning Point

SPEAKER_01 34:45

your weekend and your days. Like there might be some contrast or it might not be, but like what do you like, you know, what would you do?

SPEAKER_02 34:52

What do you mean? Were you uh in in jail?

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah, yeah. Like what would your typical day be? Like in like in Greenhaven where you stay the longest, what would your typical day be in a maximum security prison? Like, you know, like and and and and like before you went into the box? Like we'll go into that next, but like what was your typical day before you, you know, like every day?

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Well, there's there's a pre so okay, so there was a time where all I cared about was you know, just like creating a name for myself in prison, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

And that was the time I was just like, like, I just don't want any anybody to fuck with me, right? I just want my names to just like ring bells everywhere I go, right? Like when people see me, I want people to be like, yo, don't fuck with Paul. You know what I mean? So that was my mindset in the beginning, because I was still a kid, I was just 20 years old, right? 2021, right? Yeah, and so at that time, you know, you know, I was camering around, you know, shanks, you know, I had a razor blades, I was just you know, doing stuff like that, you know what I mean? Um but then it wasn't until later, like, like when I thought about like can I have an actual life after this? Yeah. And so in the beginning, oh yeah, so so I went to the box um after Clinton.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Oh, when was Clinton?

SPEAKER_02 36:28

So so it was uh so so it was 2000 to maybe like 2003.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

So it was Singh, and then you went to Green Haven?

SPEAKER_02 36:37

So so no, I went to uh five points first.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Oh you went with five points, okay?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

For for eight months. Eight months, okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

This was this is after three years of Rikers. This is after three years of Rikers, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Is the is the is the box you're locked down 23 hours a day.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

Um because I hurt two people really bad.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Wait, wait, wait, wait, Paul. So before we go in there, so so you had so so you did three years of Rikers before you were sentenced. These three years obviously count into your entire sentence, right? And so and then you and then you went to Sing Sing, right? Yep. Okay, and then you um for like maybe like a year or two, whatever. And then you went to and then you went to Greenhaven for nine years.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

I went to Clinton?

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Oh, you went to Clinton?

SPEAKER_02 37:23

After after Sing Sing.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Okay, Clinton, okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Clinton's super far. It's like 11, 10, 11 hours up all the way upstate.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Okay. And how long did you stay in Clinton for?

SPEAKER_02 37:35

I stayed in Clinton for I think three years.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Okay. So where did the box come in? Um, this was after Green, uh, Greenhaven or before?

SPEAKER_02 37:46

No, this was this was after Clinton.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Okay, okay. So now go into so now tell me about like um the box. Like what why is it called the box? Like what is the box? Because you know, like this is a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

So I got into trouble in Clinton.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Okay. For what?

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Um so basically I fought with a you know, with a can of tuna inside my sock.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Um and you know, the the people that I hit, they got injured really bad, right? Right. But I was lucky I didn't get a new charge because they, you know, they got caught with you know weapons, right? So here's the thing. If they didn't have like shanks on them, I would have probably got another charge for assault.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

But they had knives, you know what I'm saying? So, you know, I just had my can of tuna inside my sock.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's yeah, it's explainable, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Yeah, so so I didn't catch a new charge, but I did, you know, get um get in trouble for for injuring people, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Um and so I went to the box from there. I went to five points.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

What is the box? Can you explain that to me? Like, what is the box?

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Like, so box is the special housing unit.

unknown 39:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Special housing unit is where uh if you get found guilty for you know doing something inside a prison, they send you to isolation or to the box. Okay. So I went to the box. 23 hour lockdown. One hour of like one hour recreation. But the recreation is still, you know, you shower right in your cell. It's right, it's a door right behind your cell. You just open the door, it's like a little balcony area, and that's where you go to outside. So you're not really going outside at all, actually.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

And that cell is caged up, like you're like an animal in there, kind of letting out letting you out for an hour a day.

unknown 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Like unlocking the door electronically, right? That door kind of just uh like unlocks at the time of the day, and you just walk out.

SPEAKER_03 40:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Like you were there alone in that cell.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Yeah. I was alone. Uh so and the funny thing is is that you know, you talk to your neighbors, right? The people next to you. Right? But you never know what they look like. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Interesting. Yeah. So so how was like how was talking to you, like how did you get time by? Like, did you did you go crazy in there? Like, you know, like what was you know what was really difficult in there besides you know being in there by yourself? But um how did it feel like to be there by yourself? Like, did you, you know, like were you okay with it? You know, like what were like were you upset? Like, you know, did you have like fights within yourself?

unknown 40:56

Right?

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Did you have any come to any realization what you were doing?

SPEAKER_02 40:59

Yeah, so like here's the thing, you know, that's the time where you think about everything, you know? Um, and that was the time where I really started like like reading and you know, studying because I had all this time in my hands, you know what I mean? So yeah, it was that period where where I just started thinking about like what do I really want to do, right? Like what kind of person do you want to become? And you know, if I see light at the end of the tunnel, do I really want to live this lifestyle? Yeah, and so the more like I read, the more I studied, the more you know, like I really learned about myself. I was like, yo, I just gotta, you know, I just really want to make a change in my lifestyle, you know what I mean? Like, I don't wanna like have to keep on fighting and all that, you know? Yeah, and so it was after that, you know, I I started like changing a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Alright.

Why The Trap Never Looks Sinister

SPEAKER_01 42:05

We'll pause it there. You know what gets to me about this part of Paul's story?

SPEAKER_00 42:12

He described standing outside those businesses and not even fully knowing what they are.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

Just watching earning small amounts of money. And for maybe the first time in his life he felt like he mattered somewhere. That doesn't sound sinister when you lay it out like that. Because that's the trap. It never sounds sinister in the beginning. R4 is where Stoff's being casual. Stay tuned. Thank you for your support.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Join us again next week.